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Alabama Town Orders Small Time Offenders to Attend Church... Or It Will Throw Them in Jail
ThinkProgress / News Analysis
Published: Monday 26 September 2011
“This program isn’t just unconstitutional, it is unconstitutional even under conservative Justice Antonin Scalia’s vision of the Constitution’s Establishment Clause.”
This week, the Alabama town of Bay Minette will implement a bizarre and unconstitutional way of keeping minor offenders in check — go to church or go to jail:
Operation Restore Our Community or “ROC”…begins next week. The city judge will either let misdemenor [sic] offenders work off their sentences in jail and pay a fine or go to church every Sunday for a year.
If offenders elect church, they’re allowed to pick the place of worship, but must check in weekly with the pastor and the police department. If the one-year church attendance program is completed successfully, the offender’s case will be dismissed.
This program isn’t just unconstitutional, it is unconstitutional even under conservative Justice Antonin Scalia’s vision of the Constitution’s Establishment Clause. In his dissenting opinion in Lee v. Weisman, Scalia wrote that the state may not us the “threat of penalty” to “coerce anyone to support or participate in religion or its exercise.” Telling someone — even someone convicted of a crime — that they must participate in a religious service or go to jail clearly fails Justice Scalia’s test.
Indeed, as conservative law Professor Eugene Volokh points out, religiously compelled church attendance is so clearly and obviously unconstitutional, that the Mississippi Supreme Court held that a “judge’s decision to order people to attend church as a condition of bail is not just unconstitutional, but merits a 30-day suspension from the bench.” Again, this was in Mississippi.
Just across the border in Alabama, however, one town apparently thinks that the Constitution no longer applies.
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121 comments on "Alabama Town Orders Small Time Offenders to Attend Church... Or It Will Throw Them in Jail"
Nothing is more harmful to the secivre, than the neglect of discipline; for that discipline, more than numbers, gives one army superiority over another.
September 28, 2011 12:02pm
Wow! So much ignorance, misinformation and hate! You're a CHRISTIAN, right? Guess I need another route.
September 28, 2011 6:31am
Nabil - spot on and my thoughts exactly from the state that brought you 'Alabama Burning' we should expect no less. The Alabama Taliban ..... fits like a glove.
September 28, 2011 12:34am
Someone mentioning non-mainstream religions. Very refreshing. Thank you. Blessed Be.
September 27, 2011 6:18pm
I do hope they(AL) realizes that Wiccan and Satanism are 2 forms of legally recognized religions in this country and going to church as an option includes
these 2 religions.Do they specify which church they have to go to?
Nothing like being THUMPED by the Bible Thumpers
September 27, 2011 5:43am
It sounds like you're standing on your own pedestal. Couldn't you you just say it's wrong. This is what makes liberalism unpopular and polarizing.
September 28, 2011 12:37am
Wrong is too vague. This is incredibly and unbelievably stupid and unconstitutional. I would hope that even conservative, religious, Republicans would think that way, also. I mean, almost every speech they make they espouse to be so seriously supportive of and behind The Constitution, they'd have to be.
September 27, 2011 3:23am
Why does this judge think that people being forced to listen to Xtian sermons will believe what they're being told or will instantly convert? The Dominicans tried this same crap back in the Middle Ages when they invaded synagogues at random and preached Xtian sermons to an audience that was required by law to remain in the synagogue while the attempts to convert them went on...and on...and on. It didn't work then and it won't work now. (Oh, and I'm deliberately using the term "Xtian" rather than "Christian"--as far as I'm concerned, this sledgehammer approach to religion Xes Christ out of the equation. It has nothing to do with Christianity--and everything to do with power and control.)
September 26, 2011 10:38pm
It does not sound voluntary to me. Sounds like a bunch of hog wash, brain-washing crappola. Keep your religious business out of everyone else's business. If the christian morals were followed instead of dictated, then we would be better off, but we are not. Things are worse than ever, because of this religious nonsense.
September 26, 2011 9:49pm
Church or jail? interesting choice. ''church is one your with people who sing along with you, Prison the food is constant beans and wieners, no beer. Hum. 1 hour for church and maybe you can pick up a choir chick and donuts. Full time for Prison wieners and boogie men, Hummm, Do i have to put money in the offering box, maybe i could lift a note, Hummm, church i guess will do.
September 27, 2011 10:35am
Does the judge tell them what church or religious orientation they must adhere to if they choose church over jail? Tell the judge you are Wiccan...or Druid. Freedom of religion, you know....
September 26, 2011 7:15pm
I laughed out loud when I read the comment above about the unarrested pedophiles. Touche!
September 26, 2011 6:59pm
Amen. The Founding Fathers of the white nation of U.S. were Deists, and the original religion of citizens of Turtle Island honed closer to truth.
September 26, 2011 6:26pm
Good job, I couldn't have said it better myself. I traveled the same road you did and came to the same conclusions.
September 26, 2011 5:26pm
Well whatyaknow, it seems that the Amerikan version of the Taliban is taking over Alabama. I have some questions 1) will the perp's be required to attend a church where there are rattlesnakes that bite you to prove your faith? 2) What if you decide to go to a Mosque or a Synogague?
September 27, 2011 10:38am
Hahaha... I know. I posted above: "Tell the judge you are Wiccan...maybe Druid. Freedom of religion you know. Two counts of unconstitutionality of by judge if 1) must attend church to serve under the rule of law?; 2) can't attend the "church" of your choice?
September 26, 2011 4:19pm
Sounds to me that you are putting Religion and Faith at the same level. To me these are different: Religion is man made and has brought nothing but wars, hate, ignorance, etc....Faith however comes from a higher power and is instilled in those who believe in purpose and ultimate continuity of life after death.Energy keeps us alive now and energy never dies. Einstein's theory proved that.
January 17, 2012 1:23pm
Einstein's theory didn't prove anything. It is a theory! Don't get me wrong, I believe in a life after we leave these vessels. But theories are not proof.
September 27, 2011 3:31am
"...Energy keeps us alive now and energy never dies. Einstein's theory proved that..."
So what? Even if that were true, it's like saying that it doesn't matter if a lake is pumped dry or a river is dammed to a trickle. They are still lakes or rivers because water never goes away.
September 26, 2011 6:35pm
"Sounds to me that you are putting Religion and Faith at the same level. " - Can you specify what "sounded" to you like this and why?
"Faith however comes from a higher power" - Is this also "sounds to me"? Any reasons for such a grand claim? What is this "higher power"? Higher than what?
"Energy keeps us alive now and energy never dies. Einstein's theory proved that." - Good comical ending. Keep writing please.
September 26, 2011 3:20pm
It is unconstitutional, no doubt about that. I do wonder how much leeway there is in choice of church. Would attendance at a Wicca event qualify? How about an Islamic service? A spiritualist meeting? just asking.
September 27, 2011 10:39am
Posted previously: tell the judge you are Wiccan...or Druid.
September 26, 2011 4:29pm
No way, Jose
September 26, 2011 3:00pm
how smarmy and smug you sound, wrapped in your cloak of pious 'jesus-ness'. just like the pharisees and sadducees before their epic fall from grace. it's an awfully long fall from that big tall gilded pedestal on which you perch.
September 26, 2011 2:29pm
How excellent.....you are quite eloquent and percise...Thanks for the perfect comeback!
September 26, 2011 2:56pm
You sound like a broken record, Tom. Same old same old "if only you'd been exposed to the wonderments of the Lord" crapola.
Here's one for you. I am an atheist precisely because I, for the first 20 years of my life, was exposed to an abundance of religious thought and teaching. I, unlike many of the religious, actually read the Bible from cover to cover, repeatedly. I spent the first 12 years of my education in religious schools. I was exposed to many "good examples" in my formative years. I also came to the conclusion that their goodness had little, if anything, to do with their religion. They were good despite their religion, not because of it.
Someone once said: "Good men will do good. Evil men will do evil. But for a good man to do evil, it requires religion."
So, what's my excuse? Why did not all this religious exposure have its desired effect on me? I am not inherently evil or rebellious. I am no spawn of the devil. I will not divulge what denomination I grew up in, because that will only provide you with the excuse that it was the incorrect version of Christianity. Suffice it to say it is a very large, mainstream denomination and neither a snake handling, rolling in the aisle, tongue speaking cult, nor was it a liberal Kumbaya and choose-your-own-higher-power congregation.
The fact is, the more I studied the Bible, the less sense it made and the more transparently bogus it became. This is, of course, the reason that early Catholics were discouraged from reading the Bible themselves, as well as the reason that modern Protestants rarely read the entire book. The more I studied religion in general, the more I became convinced that it is simply a weapon for some and a harmful emotional and intellectual drug for others. The more I see the net effects of religion on the world, the more I become convinced that it is a net negative.
There is but one good concept contained in the Bible, and it's plagiarized like everything else in that book. It begins with "Do unto others...". All the rest is little more than an elaboration of that theme or recycled tripe invented to instill fear and discourage progress on this earth in anticipation of a better one in the hollow, infantile promise of an "afterlife". "Do unto others.., is a nearly universal sentiment in all civilizations and societies throughout recorded history, religious or otherwise. Christ didn't invent it and it doesn't need to be washed down in solution with the poisoned carrier of religion. Religion and the religious do a great disservice to mankind by insisting otherwise.
September 27, 2011 10:42am
Gandhi said: "I like your Christ. I don't like your Christians."
September 27, 2011 5:57am
I believe that religion is the root of all evil. We would all be better off without it.
That does not mean I do not believe in "God". It is my believe that God is something that human beings don't yet have the capacity to understand.
September 26, 2011 11:07pm
I like your thinking. Keep up the good work. Even if there was a god, I would think "God' is saying; Crap people! I gave you a freaking brain. Use it. I am not your freaking slave to be at your back and call. Stop listening to these idiotic, religious zealots. They have never met me, they have not idea that I actually do have horns on my head, and my buddies and I did not write that book. A bunch of stoners, drugged-out guys did (Jesus and his apostles). You all should have seen them laughing their asses off too. I am sure they are if they were alive today, they would be saying I can't believe these clowns bought this shit.
September 27, 2011 6:27pm
LMAO!
September 27, 2011 2:58am
Thanks for the compliment but I must disagree on one point. A bunch of stoners would never have written the vicious diatribe that is the Old Testament in particular. The only drugs capable of inducing such thoughts would be crystal meth or PCP, neither of which were around at the time and neither of which lends their users enough mental acuity to write much of anything.
No, they were not drugged out stoners. Would that they were. Instead they were a series of largely nomadic Bronze Age barbarians, cribbing the documents of former civilizations over a long span of time.
Drugs have a bad enough reputation. Don't slander them further by attributing them with inspiring the depraved, malicious and vile sentiments contained in the Bible.
September 26, 2011 4:55pm
Keep it Up and, Keep it Real...
Man Made god, Not, god Made Man - Imaginary Friends are just a Bible Verse Away.
September 26, 2011 2:07pm
You should read history more. This is not and never was meant to be a christian nation. Two things the founding fathers spoke out against quite strongly were Business and Religion having ANYTHING to do with government.
September 27, 2011 10:51am
Yeah, they'd had enough of the religious wars between Queen Mary (Catholic, like her mother), while sister Queen Elizabeth favored her dad King Henry's Anglican version. Both of them earned the titles: "Bloody Mary" for the first, and "Bloody Bess" for the second. Both of them put people to the stake to make their points. I imagine the Founding Fathers came here and said to each other: "No more of that. You want to live here, you keep church and state separate." There are those who will tell you that our nation was founded on Judeo-Christian ideology. If so, why did they specifically state "Separation of Church and State." ...and, were any of the Founding Fathers Jewish? Hmmm... "Under God" only means one's version of God; they didn't nail it down, so where this Judeo-Christian thing comes from, I do not understand. I ask those who subscribe to Judeo_Christians notions: "Oh yeah? Who says?" Stammering reply as they search for something to base their blanket statement on.
September 26, 2011 1:58pm
Do they get to pick what church they want to go to?
September 27, 2011 10:52am
Go for Wiccan...Druid, maybe.
September 26, 2011 1:50pm
Obviously because your options are Church or Jail. So if you don't want to go to jail, it sure isn't all that voluntary. As a Pagan, this is wildly offensive.
September 26, 2011 1:45pm
I'm sorry since when was this a christian nation? You need to research your founding fathers a little better. They were Diests at best with little affinity for organized religion. Also please the Establishment Clause of The Constitution.
September 26, 2011 1:35pm
Perfect. Now a misdemeanor criminal can spend time every Sunday with an un-arrested pedophile.
September 27, 2011 10:53am
LMAO!
September 26, 2011 1:27pm
I think some of the above comments are being too stereotypical in there condemnation of the south generally and folks in Alabama particularly. Alabama politics has always held the Constitution in contempt. Such is the case of most of the old Confederate states. Due process, desegregation, the various less than legal activities of the KKK, militias, guns, and I could go on. But to their credit, they've always been OUT about their contempt, in spite of all the blather about how much they HONOR the founding document. They've always been big on issues of law and order although we know just by looking that they are much more into order than they are law. And I hate to say it (actually, I don't) but these are issues that are endemic to the old Federal states too. Just not so obviously, thus we get to feel not so hypocritical about it. I for one think that the opportunity for inmates to go to church would be a great chance for them to learn that petty crime does not pay but that crimes that have the sanction of the church and the state do.
September 27, 2011 10:59am
I grew up in Denver and Minneapolis, but ended up working in Alabama for 10 years. There was a saying down there that, in the South, the bias is this: "they hate the race and love the individual." In my experience I saw this frequently. Close, close friends of different races existed side-by-side with condemnation of a close friend's race overall. Weird. Typical hypocrisy you see all over the favored political party down there.
September 26, 2011 1:25pm
Wow so much hatred and contempt for Jesus here in a christian nation. No wonder the Orthodox Jews are breeding in record numbers to save Israel from the A rabs and the secular homosexuals. They are NOT being forced to go and it is actually a kindness and mercy for them. See the new film 'Machine Gun' preacher where a former drug dealer finds god and goes to save Africans from the murderous moozlims. Most messed up alchoholics, drug addicts and former gangster become human beings when they recieve Jesus into their lives. The racism and contempt of the Northern Seculars here show that they are no better than the very worst religious nut job haters (KKK types). You are bigoted, hateful and ignorant. Which is ironic as that is what you accuse otheres of. GO look in a mirror.
September 27, 2011 11:06am
I've said it already and I believe he's right. He who? Gandhi, who said: "I like your Christ. I don't like your Christians."
Think about that, when you hear of another execution performed by someone who adheres to some majority-favored faith in the U.S. I'm reminded of Rick Perry who holds prayer meetings in stadiums, invites speakers who preach of unholy "gods" who fornicate with other unholy "gods", (did he watch in order to know this as fact?) then Perry presides over more people executed in TX than in any other state.
September 27, 2011 6:08am
Thank you Vlad - Jesus is really all about love and peace and following the Golden Rule. These people have made Jesus hated all over and really he wanted the same things for us that we do. For one thing, he reached out and helped women when women were not even to be spoken to - no one, however should be forced to church. This world we live in today has made Jesus out to be some kind of gun approving, violence provoking terrorist l- do as I say or else and that is the farthest thing from the truth. One of the many things I find extremely sad about the changes happening in the USA. Jesus did not encourage Tea Party politics or any politics.
----- Jesus did not encourage Tea Party politics -----
Not that I believe in such nonsense but you have to question: If jesus does exist why does he allow these teabaggers to co-opt his name? Those folks are about as far from the philosophy of the biblical jesus as night is from day. I really don't recall anything in that bible of theirs that tells them to cheer at 234 executions, the prospect of a young man dying in a coma or booing soldiers that put their life on the line every day.
September 26, 2011 3:59pm
Look who's talking...
September 26, 2011 3:27pm
Yeah, right. All these drug dealers just don't know God. As a Cuban friend used to say to me, "Lemme' tell you just one thing".
I spent the decade of the 80's in S. Florida. I knew literally dozens of drug dealers. Without exception, they were the single most religious group of people I had ever known outside of prison walls, and that includes my 12 years of religious education.
Then, in the early 90's, I moved. Again, I knew many drug dealers. They too were exceedingly religious. It was just a different denomination of Christianity. They all had a personal relationship with God and he protected them from other drug dealers as well as the law. Just ask them, they'll tell you. They all planned on being forgiven and "saved" again, just as soon as they got enough money to retire.
Then I worked for a few years in a prison system. If you want to find the most religious group of people in the world, try prison inmates. They've ALL received Jesus into their lives (except the Muslims). Of course, it doesn't stop the killings, drug use, theft or rapes. And, ironically, the most religious group are the pedophiles, appropriately referred to as the "Chaplains's Boys".
Most messed up alcoholics, drug addicts and former gangsters become human beings when they get sick and tired of being sick and tired, or when they grow up and get tired of the stress, whichever comes first. Jesus has nothing to do with it. People quit engaging in certain behaviors when THEY decide they REALLY want to, or when they are compelled to quit. It doesn't happen because of some magic sky-daddy any more than Jumbo the elephant could fly because of his magic peanut. They do themselves an injustice to pretend otherwise and the ease by which they do so is a manifestation of the self-esteem problems that likely led to their behavior in the first place.
September 26, 2011 1:26pm
Wow yourself. Would Jesus use a word like "moozlims"? With "murderous"? Sounds like contempt if not racism to me. I think Jesus would not be happy with that.
September 26, 2011 1:18pm
Fabulous! A misdemeanor criminal can spend every Sunday with an un-arrested pedophile. Somehow it makes sense.