Robert Jensen
NationofChange / Op-Ed
Published: Saturday 4 February 2012
This is our task — the tearing down of systems inconsistent with our values and the building up of something new, dismantling and restoration — not only for preachers seeking to be handlers of the prophetic tradition, but for anyone interested in facing honestly our political, economic, and social problems.

Prophetic Politics: Charting a Healthy Role for Religion in Public Life

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Does God take sides in the elections? Is there a voters’ guide hiding in our holy books? Should we pray for electoral inspiration?

Secular people tend to answer an emphatic “NO” to those questions, as do most progressive religious folk. Because religious fundamentalists so often present an easy-to-caricature version of faith-based politics -- even to the point of implying that God would want us to vote for certain candidates -- it’s tempting to want to banish all talk of the divine from political life.

But a blanket claim that “religion and politics don’t mix” misunderstands the inevitable connection between the two. Whether secular or religious, our political judgments are always rooted in first principles -- claims about what it means to be human that can’t be reduced to evidence and logic. Should people act purely out of self-interest, or is solidarity with others just as important? Do we owe loyalty to a nation-state? Under what conditions, if any, is the taking of a human life justified? What is the appropriate relationship of human beings to the larger living world?

These basic moral/spiritual questions underlie everyone’s politics, and our answers are shaped by the philosophical and/or theological systems in which we find inspiration and insight. Since everyone’s political positions reflect their foundational commitments, it doesn’t seem fair to say that those grounded in a secular philosophy can draw on their traditions, but people whose political outlooks are rooted in religion have to mute themselves.

Rather than trying to bracket religion out of politics, we should be discussing how religious traditions can play a role in a healthy politics, and one productive place to start in the context of the Christian tradition is Walter Brueggemann’s new book, The Practice of Prophetic Imagination: Preaching an Emancipatory Word. Building on the book for which he is most known -- The Prophetic Imagination, first published in 1978 with a second edition in 2001 -- Brueggemann moves beyond sectarian politics and self-satisfied religion to ask difficult questions about our relationship to power. He makes it clear that taking the prophetic tradition seriously means being willing to make those around us -- and ourselves – uncomfortable.

In that earlier book, Brueggemann argued that the tradition of prophecy demands more of us than a self-indulgent expression of righteous indignation over injustice or vague calls for social justice, what he calls “a liberal understanding of prophecy” that can serve as “an attractive and face-saving device for any excessive abrasiveness in the service of almost any cause.”

Brueggemann wants more from those who claim to stand in the prophetic tradition, which he asserts is rooted in resistance to the dominance of a “royal consciousness” that produces numbness in people. Prophetic ministry, Brueggemann argues in that first book, seeks to “penetrate the numbness in order to face the body of death in which we are caught” and “penetrate despair so that new futures can be believed in and embraced by us.” And make no mistake, Brueggemann’s concern is not the royal culture of Biblical days but dominant culture of the contemporary United States and its quest for endless material acquisition and constant expansion of power.

Brueggemann also makes it clear that the prophet is not a finger-wagging scold. The task of prophetic ministry is to bring to public expression “the dread of endings, the collapse of our self-madness, the barriers and pecking orders that secure us at each other’s expense, and the fearful practice of eating off the table of a hungry brother or sister.” In other words, prophets speak the language of mourning, “that crying in pathos,” that provides “the ultimate form of criticism, for it announces the sure end of the whole royal arrangement.”

More than three decades after the publication of that book, Brueggemann returns to explore the implications of taking seriously the prophetic imagination, specifically for clergy. But while the book is aimed at preachers and their struggles to bring the prophetic imagination alive in a congregation, Brueggemann’s words are relevant to any citizen concerned about the health of our politics and the state of the world.

The new book begins by arguing that the gospel narrative of social transformation, justice, and compassion is in direct conflict with the dominant narrative of the United States: “therapeutic, technological, consumerist militarism” that “is committed to the notion of self-invention in the pursuit of self-sufficiency.” The logic and goals of that dominant culture foster “competitive productivity, motivated by pervasive anxiety about having enough, or being enough, or being in control.” All this bolsters notions of “US exceptionalism that gives warrant to the usurpatious pursuit of commodities in the name of freedom, at the expense of the neighbor.”

Right out of the gate, Brueggemann makes it clear that he is going to critique not just the problems of the moment but the political, economic, and social systems from which those problems emerge, and that to speak frankly about those systems means taking risks. Preachers who put the articulation of this prophetic imagination at the center of their work -- and he makes it clear that preachers don’t have to claim to be prophets but should see themselves as “handler[s] of the prophetic tradition” -- will most likely encounter intense resistance to the message. The dominant narrative does dominate, after all, and critics are rarely embraced.

Just as the prophets struggled to persuade a royal culture that preferred to ignore the message, so do contemporary preachers need to connect the dots and make a case that goes against the grain. Central to this process is that dot-connecting, that naming of reality.

“Prophetic preaching does not put people in crisis. Rather it names and makes palpable the crisis already pulsing among us,” Brueggemann writes. “When the dots are connected, it will require naming the defining sins among us of environmental abuse, neighborly disregard, long-term racism, self-indulgent consumerism, all the staples from those ancient truthtellers translated into our time and place.”

What masks those sins, Brueggemann writes, is “a totalizing ideology of exceptionalism that precludes critique of our entitlements and self-regard,” and the prophetic imagination helps us see that.

Once we accept this critique of the systems that surround us, the next step is dealing with a sense of loss and the accompanying grief as we let go of the illusions that come with wealth and power. “That function of prophetic preaching is important because in a society of buoyant denial as ours is, there is no venue for public grief,” he writes. “It is required, in the dominant narrative, to rush past loss to confident ‘recovery’ according to a tight ideology of success.”

Brueggemann does not suggest we stay mired in grief; when society’s denial has been penetrated, prophetic preaching has the task of giving voice to “hope-filled possibility.” But he reminds us to be careful not to jump too quickly into an empty hope: “Hope can, of course, be spoken too soon. And when spoken too soon, it may too soon overcome the loss and short-circuit the indispensable embrace of guilt and loss. The new possibility is always on the horizon for prophetic preachers. But good sense and theological courage are required to know when to say what.”

This is our task -- the tearing down of systems inconsistent with our values and the building up of something new, dismantling and restoration -- not only for preachers seeking to be handlers of the prophetic tradition, but for anyone interested in facing honestly our political, economic, and social problems. The task, in Brueggemann’s words, is “to mediate a relinquishment of a world that is gone and a reception of a world that is being given.”

Again, Brueggemann’s goal in the book isn’t to advocate for specific politicians, parties, or political programs but to articulate the underlying values that should inform our political thinking. He seeks to confront truth (against denial) and articulate hope (against despair) in the face of a “denying, despairing, totalizing ideology” that presents itself as the only game in town. While it is difficult for many people to let go of the dominant ideology, Brueggemann argues that people “yearn and trust for more than the empire can offer. We yearn for abundance and transformation and restoration. We yearn beyond the possible.”

Brueggemann’s analysis may resonate with many progressive people who aren’t churchgoers or don’t consider themselves spiritual in any sense, but who may ask whether his arguments need to draw on a religious tradition. Wouldn’t most of his arguments make just as much sense in the language of secular politics? I think they would, but there is great value in Brueggemann’s approach.

First, whatever any one person’s beliefs, the dominant religion in the United States is Christianity; around three-quarters of the U.S. population identifies as Christian in some sense. The stories of that tradition are the stories of our culture, and the struggle over that interpretation is crucial to political and social life.

Even more important is the fact that church is still a place where people come to think about these basic questions. Even in the most timid church, the question of “what are people for?” is on the agenda, and hence there is potential to challenge the dominant culture’s values.

“The local congregation continues to be a matrix for emancipatory, subversive utterance that is not amenable to totalizing ideology,” Brueggemann writes. “People continue to sit and listen attentively to the exposition of the word. People still entertain the odd thought, in spite of the reductionisms of modernity, that God is a real character and the defining agent in the life of the world. People still gather in church to hear and struggle with what is no on offer anywhere else.”

Brueggemann’s invocation of “God” may put off secular people, who assume that any use of the term implies supernatural claims about God as an actual being that directs the universe. But that is not the only way to understand God, of course. In fact, one of the greatest conversation-starting aspects of this approach is the always provocative question, “What do you mean by God?” When someone cites God, we can -- and should -- ask: Is God a being, entity, or force in the world? Is God the name humans use for that which is beyond our understanding? What is God to you? Rather than closing down conversation along sectarian lines, our religious traditions have the capacity to open up the conversations about meaning that are difficult to have in a privatized, depoliticized, mass-mediated, mass-medicated world.

To ask whether we should understand our world through a religious or secular lens is to misunderstand both -- it’s not an either/or proposition. We have the tools of modernity and science to help us understand what we can understand about the material world. We have faith traditions that remind us of the limits of our understanding. In the church I attend (a progressive Presbyterian congregation, St. Andrew’shttp://www.jimrigby.org/) those two approaches are not at odds but part of the same project -- to understand a world facing multiple crises, drawing on the best of religious and secular traditions, struggling together to solve the problems that can be solved and to face the problems that may be beyond solutions.

In a world in collapse, these realities often seem too painful to bear and the work before us often seems overwhelming. The prophetic tradition offers a language for understanding that pain and finding the collective strength to continue.

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ABOUT Robert Jensen

Robert Jensen is a journalism professor at the University of Texas at Austin and board member of the Third Coast Activist Resource Center in Austin, one of the partners in the community center “5604 Manor,”http://5604manor.org/. He is the author of All My Bones Shake: Seeking a Progressive Path to the Prophetic Voice, (Soft Skull Press, 2009);Getting Off: Pornography and the End of Masculinity (South End Press, 2007); The Heart of Whiteness: Confronting Race, Racism and White Privilege (City Lights, 2005); Citizens of the Empire: The Struggle to Claim Our Humanity (City Lights, 2004); and Writing Dissent: Taking Radical Ideas from the Margins to the Mainstream (Peter Lang, 2002). Jensen is also co-producer of the documentary film “Abe Osheroff: One Foot in the Grave, the Other Still Dancing,” which chronicles the life and philosophy of the longtime radical activist. Information about the film, distributed by the Media Education Foundation, and an extended interview Jensen conducted with Osheroff are online at http://thirdcoastactivist.org/osheroff.html. Jensen can be reached at rjensen@uts.cc.utexas.edu and his articles can be found online at http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~rjensen/index.html. To join an email list to receive articles by Jensen, go tohttp://www.thirdcoastactivist.org/jensenupdates-info.html.

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23 comments on "Prophetic Politics: Charting a Healthy Role for Religion in Public Life"

Mark Hobson

February 17, 2012 2:49pm

In my opinion, most of the negative reactions posted to this article seem to miss the point of the book and the article. Brueggemann is writing to Christian preachers, not to politicians or the voting public at large. Neither author is trying to force religion on the non-religious. Everyone's political perspectives are motivated by a belief system of some sort. Brueggemann is attempting to motivate Christian preachers to be more accurate and direct about their presentation of what that belief system is for Christians.

CopperCowboy

February 06, 2012 3:33pm

Same old problem, I paraphrase Mark Twain, "A Christian is someone who thinks he should mind everyone's business but his own." Short of greed and meglomania, execution of religious belief, as government policy, is the root cause of most of the world's problems. It is impossible to educate faith, it is ignorance cast in stone.

Christina Marlowe's picture
Christina Marlowe

February 05, 2012 12:36pm

This article is pure garbage. Read basic history, Mr. Jensen, and maybe even the likes of you will LEARN that Religion, every last one of them, is and always has been a VERITABLE PLAGUE to society and a horrible contamination to human existence itself. I resent any one, especially some stupid-to-the-core idiot who denies actual and proven science, trying to force their rabid, sanctimonious and self-righteous DELUSIONS on me or anyone else; And make no mistake, ALL RELIGIONS try to DICTATE their stupid fairy-tales to the rest of us.

Furthermore, the sheer and willful ignorance and the core stupidity of most "religious" people actively negates entirely ALL available information; Actual FACTS become Horrid LIES; Actual History is morphed into Insane and Totally Contradictory Parodies. As these empty-headed parasites read their noxious bibles, filling their minds with dangerous claptrap, their very brains atrophy; they're all loathsome and unforgivably dumb animals. They are NOT innocent, by the way. ANY ONE can pick up any book and read it at ANY time; Is it too HARD? These busybody, quid nunc creatures CHOOSE to be stupid MORONS, and to great Success...

KarenH

February 05, 2012 1:39am

"And, in fact, many of the world's problems are caused or made worse by religious conflicts (Iraq, Palestinians vs. Israelis, 9/11, etc., etc.), not helped by religion."

And many are solved by and made better by people of religion: the Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.; Gandhi; William Wilberforce and the many fervently religious abolitionists who pushed through anti-slavery legislation, and modern-day abolitionists who still work to put an end to human trafficking. Then there was the scientist who was the father of physics--Isaac Newton--also a fervent Puritan. The scientist that first proposed the Big Bang theory of the universe and proposed Hubble's Law was a Catholic priest. Florence Nightingale, who made nursing a respectable profession and who also invented statistical analysis, was a deeply religious woman who believed nursing was a God-given calling. I could name hundreds, even thousands, of others if given the time.

The first responders world-wide with regard to relief aid are those religious charities that work year-round to provide food and medicine and work to build infrastructure. When FEMA was scrambling around trying to figure out what to do, religious charities were already on the ground distributing food and necessities in the aftermath of Katrina. The first to cry out against the genocide in Darfur were missionaries who were there to give relief aid to those who were suffering under oppression--not the Hollywood types who later deigned to take notice, not the New York Times, which dismissed the concerns over the incipient problems in Sudan as evangelicals' "pet project."

It was the very dismissiveness such as the comments to this essay regarding religion that extended the suffering of those in the Sudan and Darfur, dismissiveness that ignored the appeals from religious people on the ground who were witnessing the horrors first-hand.

When Mr. Jensen talks of "prophetic voices," he means "prophetic" in the biblical sense: the speaking of an essential truth or truths. Warning of things that may come from current events or ways of being. Religious people are not the only ones who speak prophetically, but they have a very long tradition of it.

This is one reason for the separation of church and state: not only for religious freedom and conscience, but also so that religion can stay separate enough to be one of the voices of conscience and opposition to government corruption, and to do so freely, instead of being controlled by (or be corrupted by) political parties. That's not to say that religious organizations aren't fallible--of course they can be, because they are made up of human beings, and humans are very, very fallible. But at their best--as witnessed by those religions that gave rise to such people as King, Gandhi, and the various charities around the world that help feed, heal, and clothe the poor--religions can be the voice of conscience and real warning.

I personally believe that religious organizations would be better off without government money, because then they'd be more free to speak out when need be and can practice their beliefs as they feel is right--that's the essence of religious freedom, which is another form of freedom of expression.

However, it would also mean many homeless shelters, medical care for the poor, adoptive agencies, and relief aid would disappear. They'd have to be replaced by government agencies/bureaucracies...and I have to say, I'm not so sure that's a good idea.

When people who have what they need are separated by layers of bureaucracy from people in need, those people in need become very faceless indeed. Charity then becomes sanitary and a matter of filling out the right form and showing the right identification and jumping through the right hoops and waiting in the right line. You pay your taxes--no need to look that hungry person in the eye, or acknowledge their humanity. Someone else will do the job of making the sandwiches, washing their clothes...doing the dirty work. Taxes and filling out the right form doesn't walk the streets every night to let homeless people know there's a shelter and hot food nearby.

Religious charities are there, on the ground, doing the work, and for the most part are staffed by volunteers. They do it silently, unspectacularly, generally passed over by the news media because helping those in need is not very exciting or controversial and thus generally does not generate ad money on web sites, newspapers, or on TV. And because it's not a 9 to 5, gimme-a-paycheck type of job, but one volunteers do for free because they truly care, volunteers are often the first ones to see disturbing trends that need to be brought to public notice.

I wish the issues surrounding religion in the public sphere were very black and white, but they aren't. Statistically, religious people (that is, those who practice their religion at least weekly) volunteer more than those who are are not, whether it's at a homeless shelter or at the food bank. They are the first responders in relief aid. They are regulars in the front lines against poverty. As a result, they're often the first ones to see an injustice and speak out about it--or, more importantly, shut up and do something about it.

CaliJim

February 05, 2012 5:01pm

While there are studies that show religious people volunteer more and give more to charity than non-religious people, the most recent study available shows essentially no difference.

The study is the U.K. Department for Communities and Local Government report titled, "The Citizenship Survey: April 2010 - March 2011." and was released in September 2011. It states "...58 percent of British Christians participate in civic engagement and formal volunteering at least once last year, compared to 56 percent of those with no religion – statistically the same...."

It also depends on how the studies are structured, since I've seen one study that quoted the simple percentages of "Religious" to "Non-Religious" participating in various volunteer activities and used the fact of a higher percentage (60% to 70%) of them being self-identified as "Religious" as proof that "Religious" people volunteer more.

This simplistic conclusion is both factually and statistically invalid, since the percentage of people in society who identify as "Religious" is larger than the "Non-Religious" identifiers by almost the same exact percentage. Obviously, if 60% to 70% of society is "Religious" and their makeup of a volunteer or charitable activity is the same amount, then the actual involvement by each group is nearly exactly the same...just as was shown in the UK study. If it were actually true that religious people volunteered more than non-religious people, then you would see nearly the entire number of volunteers being religious…which is not the case.

We can exchange arguments of who does what to whom and who should get the blame or credit all day long. While my personal observations and historical review indicates that the negative attributes of religion far outweigh the positives, it is certainly fair to admit that there are arguments on the side of the positive influence of religion. In most cases, though, it can reasonably be argued that while the secular volunteers and charity givers are simply interested in helping their fellow man, religious groups are at least reasonably to be suspected of being motivated by the opportunity to spread their faith...something that simply doesn't exist in the secular efforts, since they have no "faith" to spread. This begs the question of - even if it were true that more religious people volunteer and give to charity - is it possible that it's motivated by a form of self- interest rather than simple charity?

Aside from all that, the entire premise of the article you are commenting on is the role of religion in politics…not its role in charity and volunteering…so your arguments as to whether religion is more beneficial in those areas than the lack of religion are completely irrelevant.

Your argument is also essentially a "back door" entry into the same idea (that I’ve addressed in my other post) that religious people have more morals than non-religious people, which again proposes that people's morals are a result of their having or not having religion. Since the existence of people before religions (again, unless you wholly subscribe to the literal creationist ideas advanced by various societies) is a given, then you have to assume that the people who lived prior to the creation of the religion had no moral beliefs...which is simply not credible.

In fact, moral psychology studies show that people possess innate moral standards, regardless of their religious or non-religious status - and some studies seem to indicate that the more religious a society is, the more social ills it suffers from.

Others correctly question whether a moral system based on the concept of rewards or punishment after death is truly a moral system - or just an enforced set of responses dictated by the perceptions of the believers? In other words, if a person is forced to behave in a certain way or suffer punishment as a result, then is it reasonable to ascribe any morality at all to the action?

Also, if someone is moral because of the consequences of NOT being moral, then what happens if a situation arises where they might reasonably believe that there would be no such consequences? Religious people tend to project onto non-religious people a behavior that would act immorally in those situations - yet non-religious people repeatedly behave in a moral sense, despite that same lack of consequences to doing otherwise - while religious people often act in immoral ways, despite their supposedly superior moral position.

Here's an interesting look at some of these ideas - http://www.qcc.cuny.edu/socialsciences/ppecorino/phil_of_religion_text/C...

I have no problem with people having a religion. I do have a problem with people using that religion to raise themselves above people who refuse to believe in such things and prefer to use logic and reason in their approach to dealing with life and the challenges living brings us…which, in my opinion, your entire line of reasoning attempts to do.

Have a religion if you want. Use it in your moral judgments if you want. Just mind your own business and let others do the same – or not, as they see fit. Religion – or the lack of it – should be a private, personal thing and not something to be forced on others.

As it says in Matthew 6:5 - “And when you pray, you shall not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Truly I say to you, They have their reward.”

KarenH

February 06, 2012 11:00am

Callum, actually, my arguments regarding volunteerism are relevant. And no, I am not trying to use religion to raise others above people who refuse to believe. In fact, in light of the nasty comments in response to this column, I see very little difference between those who say they are religious and spew hate at those who aren't and those who are non-religious and spew hate at those who are.

If we all want to push for social justice, then we have to find common ground. And to continue to believe that there can't be common ground between the secular and the religious, between the "right" and the "left" accomplishes nothing of practical value. When we do that, we've bought into the stereotypes pushed by the media for the sake of controversy and feeding corporate coffers.

Controversy sells. It always has. That's what politics and corporations live on. So far, I just see their bank accounts grow a lot bigger while the rest of us bicker about who is better than who else.

We all have something to contribute.

For me, the bottom line is practice, and whether that practice leads to actual work toward practical results. If someone is religious and their belief system motivates them to join the Occupy Wall Street movement, feed the poor, and stop human trafficking, then their work is equally good as someone whose humanist beliefs lead them to join the Occupy Wall Street movement, feed the poor, and stop human trafficking. Both are doing their best to do good, and that is what counts.

In addition, the recent studies that show no difference between religious and secular don't correct for actual practice. They count those who say they're religious but who don't practice it more than once in a blue moon. Those who attend once in a blue moon and still call themselves religious are rather like those 21% of atheists the Pew Forum discovered who believe in God, the 12% who believe in heaven, and the 10% of who pray weekly. I think we can probably say that those who don't practice religion and don't believe in God are probably not religious; and those who believe in God, in heaven, and pray weekly are probably not atheists. Both can be discounted from those respective groups, regardless of their self-identification.

When the statistics are actually corrected for actual, regular practice, yes, it does show that those who are religious volunteer and give more.

And, strictly speaking, the reason why the religious volunteer and give more to charity is because they were mostly raised that way. In other words, those people who were raised in secular households that nevertheless had parents who gave to charity on a weekly basis or volunteered on a weekly basis, ALSO do so as adults.

So whether someone is charitable or not is really based on modeling parents who are. Religious people just have higher charitable numbers because they were raised by parents who were charitable.

In other words, I'm not saying that religious people are necessarily better (and the deeply religious--rather than those who say they are--would agree that they are NOT in fact better than the nonreligious). I'm saying that those who were raised to be charitable/volunteer continue to conduct themselves that way, and that it so happens that religions have this practice as a core principle, therefore those who believe and practice these core principles will volunteer more than those who don't. Hence the higher representation of religious people amongst volunteers.

That said, all this is indeed relevant to what the article says about "prophetic speaking."

Historically speaking, most social movements that seek to correct injustices arise from people who have experienced or who have first-hand knowledge of those injustices, regardless of what those injustices are. It was probably not a religious person who formed the first atheist organization to protect atheists' rights, and it was not a slaveowner who formed the first abolitionist group.

So, you have a situation thus:

1. Religious people tend to volunteer a lot, and thus are exposed to the plight of disadvantaged people.

2. Those who are exposed to the plight of disadvantaged people will over time want to speak out about it. This is known amongst religious people as "speaking prophetically." This is not to say that non-religious people can't "speak prophetically." Of course they can, and do. But because there is a higher number of religious people who have been exposed to the disadvantaged over the course of history because their belief system, you will have a significant number of religious people over time who also speak out/spearhead movements to rectify those problems.

3. As a result, you end up with people like Martin Luther King, Jr.; Gandhi; the abolitionists of the 18th and 19th century; the founders of Goodwill; World Vision; Red Cross; and thousands of other organizations that--whether they are now secular or remain religious--still do practical good in the world.

4. Which does tend to show that religious people are exposed to a lot of the ills of the world, and have and still do real, practical good. And that does shore up the article's argument that religion does have a part in society, and because it historically has given rise to people who have spoken out about injustices.

Religion, as a result, does have a place in public discourse when it comes to rectifying social injustice.

In my personal experience of charitable works, I have to say I have seen more religious people working to help the poor than atheists, and being a curious person, I do ask. :-) That's not to say that atheists don't--I've known atheists that do and do so regularly. But the majority--in my experience--who do the practical, every-day work of correcting social injustices are religious.

One more thing: I have to say I'm aghast at the stereotypes pushed in the comments section regarding religion and religious people. If race were substituted for religion, they'd sound mightily like the slurs I put up with in the 1960's regarding my biracial heritage. It shows a profound ignorance of the daily workings of religion, religious people, and the extremely diverse beliefs of those religious people.

Religious people--as with secular--are not one monolithic block of people with exactly the same beliefs and habits, but are very diverse in their thinking and practices. To think otherwise is to feed into the very same types of beliefs that led to social injustices in the first place, and diminish the very rich resources in the marketplace of ideas.

CaliJim

February 08, 2012 7:04pm

Karen,
I find your response to be fascinating. You dismiss the study that shows your claims to be in error as not being corrected for actual practice – yet fail to provide any justification for that position. Unless you can offer some specific portion of the study that confirms your statement (or a demonstrable logical example that proves your point, based on specific sources), I’m forced to consider it simple opinion/belief with no evidence to prove it true – which is exactly the same problem presented by the claim that there is a God. While it can be believed to be so, there is a world of difference between believing and stating it as a fact. Truth is, as I said before, there is not a single objective, factual, piece of evidence that any of the many, many gods throughout our history is real…not a single one.

You yourself addressed the problem with the Pew Forum study that claims that 10% of Atheists pray weekly. Since the definition of an Atheist is…

“a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings. Origin: 1565–75; < Greek áthe ( os ) godless”

Pray is defined as “To utter or address a prayer or prayers to God, a god, or another object of worship”

and Prayer is defined as “a. A reverent petition made to God, a god, or another object of worship.
b. The act of making a reverent petition to God, a god, or another object of worship.
2. An act of communion with God, a god, or another object of worship, such as in devotion, confession, praise, or thanksgiving
3. A specially worded form used to address God, a god, or another object of worship.”

…it is obviously not possible for a true atheist to pray, since praying involves a god, which by definition an atheist does not believe in. That is a demonstrably logical refutation of their point and casts reasonable doubt as to the credibility of any other information contained in such a demonstrably deficient "study".

Your refutation of the study I referenced, on the on the other hand, has no such clear, logical example to justify it. Again, in the absence any proof of your claim, I have to reject your subsequent statements and claims that are based on the refutation of the study in question. While it MAY be possible that your claims are true (just as claims about gods MAY be true) the step from hypothetical possibility to actual reality requires objective proof. Otherwise, we could postulate that Dragons and Unicorns are real, simply because some people have believed so or they show up in literature and societal stories.

While you may justifiably be upset with other people’s “hateful” statements toward religion, I don’t see that my comments warrant inclusion in that group. Pointing out logical inconsistencies and errors isn’t tantamount to being hateful. Would you categorize someone who pointed out errors in math or grammar as being motivated by hatred, absent any other evidence that to prove your claim? Please point out any specific parts of my posts that indicate that I hate religion or religious people?

Truthfully, I feel mostly pity for people who need to have what I view as an imaginary friend in order to cope with the world – as well as exasperation at their constant attempt to rationally justify what is at its core a simple belief system that by its very nature is impossible to prove in a rational, logical manner. Everyone is free to believe what they want. It’s when they attempt to push those beliefs on others, particularly in laws designed to enforce those beliefs – or to justify the superiority of people with those beliefs to people without such beliefs, that I have a problem. Despite what you claim, your arguments definitely push the concept of theists being superior to atheists - and are not related to the primary thrust of the article, which is correctly illustrated by the photo of the street sign showing Religion crossing Politics....not Charity or Volunteerism.

I find it interesting that people will often go to great lengths to find a logical explanation for what is actually an emotionally driven belief. People who opposed de-segregation used tortured arguments and studies (like eugenics and scientific racism) which attempted to “prove” that different races – and even women – genetically inferior. Of course, in every such attempt, there were also claims that the Bible showed such beliefs to be true. Additionally, the people who embraced such “studies” were adamant in rejecting any criticism of those studies, as well as rejecting any studies offered that showed contrary results, since accepting any such modification undermined their core belief. In fact, such resistance to evidence refuting those ideas continues to exist today, unfortunately.

Since you’ve raised the issue of discrimination – let’s discuss that for a moment. Have you ever been told that you would burn in Hell because you believe in God? Have you ever been told that you can’t possibly have any morals because you believe in God? Can you name a single city, county or State in the country where you would be denied the opportunity to run for public office (or take a particular job) because you believe in God? What if you were told you should not be allowed to be a parent – or that you were an unfit parent and not a "proper" role model for your child- or a "real American"?

Atheists are treated this way on a daily basis – believe me when I say it’s true, because I’ve experienced them first hand in the examples related to personal condemnation and can provide you with ample evidence of discrimination against atheists in employment.

By claiming that someone who disagrees with statements and beliefs that demean them and deny equal status and opportunity is being discriminatory, you are making the same argument as the racists who claim that equal opportunity and Civil Rights laws are somehow “reverse racism”. That belief is a crock regardless of who is using the argument since it’s based on the idea that objecting to, or preventing, discrimination is in itself discriminating against the “right” of the person to discriminate against anyone they want to - which is a core principle of Ron Paul’s argument against the Civil Rights Act and those who support his position. I strongly doubt you would agree with his position - so why is it that you utilize the same argument?

Going back to your comment about "hateful" speech, history is replete with examples of black militants whose intemperate and inflammatory statements were branded as "hate-filled" and subsequently used as examples by defenders of the status quo to minimize the validity of the overall movement and its goals. While the angry comments may have been seen as "hateful" - and were certainly inflammatory (as well as probably not helpful to the cause as a whole or necessarily even agreed with by the mainstream supporter of the movement) does that mean that they were not valid or correct in their representation of the situation - or that the situation didn't warrant serious consideration because of their individual actions? Of course not.

It’s particularly galling that this type of argument comes from someone who self-identifies as biracial and having suffered from discrimination! It reminds me of a “Christian religious advisor” I know of, who is black and married to a white woman – yet doesn’t consider denying Gays the right to marry as being discriminatory or bigoted…and this coming from a person who would not be permitted to marry his wife only a few decades ago! Almost certainly his right to marry his wife was assisted by at least some people who were gay - and now he takes the same position on them that the bigots held in denying his right to marry who he chose to love...talk about irony.

It also illustrates the way unconscious bias can so permeate the thinking and "reality" of a person that it prevents them from seeing their own beliefs and actions for what they really are. To him, denying gays the right to marry isn't discrimination or bigotry...it's just the "right" thing to do. There is no difference between his position and that of a white racist who also didn't see denying a black man the right to marry a white woman (or, actually, equal rights in any fashion) as discrimination or bigotry...again, it was simply what was "right". As the Bruce Hornsby song goes..."That's just the way it is".

Your attempt to rationalize and provide a logical basis for your emotionally driven beliefs is a common occurrence – and there is a great discussion of it that I suggest you read at this link.

http://www.wjh.harvard.edu/~jgreene/GreeneWJH/Greene-KantSoul.pdf

Its rather long, but very interesting. At the very least, make sure you read the section at the very beginning that deals with the unconscious bias and rationalization of the “Pantyhose Choice” experiment…it’s very enlightening.

It’s been interesting discussing this with you, but I have other things I need to do with my time, so I’ll end this with a hope that you will examine your position more carefully and reconsider your beliefs. As a person who WAS religious in my youth and spent much time reading an exploring multiple religious and philosophical beliefs – as well as historical records – I gradually moved from uncritical religious belief to skepticism to ultimately rejecting religion as being any more valid in people’s lives than superstitions or myths like Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the like.

Obviously, I’ve proven that I can examine a strongly held belief and change it if I feel the evidence warrants such a change – while I see no evidence of the same in you or the myriad of other religious believers I’ve come in contact with over my many decades of existence. . Instead, my experience has been that they utilize their intellectual abilities and research efforts to defend their pre-conceived concepts, rejecting any other concepts and beliefs at all costs – much, I expect, as the people who believed in a flat Earth or the Sun revolving around the Earth did, in their time. Such is the nature of belief...and why I prefer to use facts and logic instead of belief.

franknernst

February 04, 2012 8:34pm

I am very tired of any discussion in this country which assumes a Christ based religion as the basis of any religious discussion. Until this author decides that other faiths have the same rights to his decisions on state versus religion I will find him unqualified to approach in any way the discussion. I am also disappointed in nation of change for choosing this as a viable topic to offer

Peter Hart

February 04, 2012 8:17pm

I'm WAY beyond being sick of folks quoting the bible and assuming that christianity is the state religion (even if they don't come out and say so directly). And prophetic politics? Has the author read Revelations? Obviously christianity has failed to adhere to the teachings of it's alleged messiah. Give me an honest secularist any day.

jonhuie

February 04, 2012 4:46pm

Belief in the Spiritual can be inspiring, but some religions have doctrinal beliefs, such as that the world was created in 4004bc or that a single celled organism (fertilized egg) should have the rights of a human being, that must be kept out of any responsible government.We need to value the health and education of future generations of Americans more than we value kowtowing to fringe beliefs backed by big budgets.

CaliJim

February 04, 2012 4:32pm

The title itself is ridiculous, since there simply is NO "Healthy" role for religion in public political life.

To then follow by essentially stating that moral/ethical questions are "rooted in first principles", which is obviously interpreted to mean theological concepts, is to give credence to the idea that "there are no morals without God" - which implicitly states that anyone who doesn't believe in God (and in particular, the "correct" God, since there are many different versions with many different moral attributes over the ages) has no morality.

What an arrogant, self-centered, egotistical, as well as simply flat out wrong, concept! Recent studies indicate that people have an innate sense of right and wrong, fair and unfair that has little to do with their particular style of, or absence of, religion in their life.

Indeed, it's far more likely that the religions that were created reflected the moral sense of the people who created them, rather than the religion creating the moral sense in the people - since in every instance the people predated the religious concepts, unless you subscribe to the creationist theories that are completely contrary to the abundant evidence provided by archaeology...which also shows a progression of religions through populations. Interestingly enough, each successive dominant religion in a population becomes the "only real, true" religion and previously strongly supported and believed religions are relegated to "myths" - with the arrogant assumption that their current religion will never suffer the same fate in the distant future.

It also has more than a little sense of entitlement, since the unstated assumption contained in that attitude is that it will be based on the "god" of the person making that judgment...rather than on the basis of the "god" of a different religion - or a discarded "god" from a past religion. I strongly doubt that the author is trying to make a case for the use of Sharia Law (or, the religious beliefs represented by the Kali Cult, for example) in the political system of the United States, so the assumptive bias in his argument is obvious, don't you think? He clearly has the idea that there is only one real concept of "God"...otherwise his argument falls on it's face.

As the quote by Stephen Roberts goes, ""I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." Obviously, if all of the gods you don't believe in are not real, then your god that another person doesn't believe in is not real, either.

Now that we've established the basis for a reasonable and rational argument that there simply can't be any basis for postulating that any "god" is real...based on the actual attitudes and statements of "believers" (never mind that there is zero objective evidence of the reality of a single god in all of history), what then, are we to make of the argument that there is a role for religion in politics? Simply put, there is none - just as there is no role in politics for Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny or Harvey, the invisible rabbit.

On the other hand, there is a strong role for rational discussion, evidence and logic in the role of politics (which the author dismisses in his writing)...all of which flies out the window whenever religion is introduced - and has been sorely lacking in the political process for some time now, largely because of the "belief system" driven style of politics we increasingly see utilized. If it is true that "Insanity is repeating the same actions over and over and expecting a different result", then arguing that using even more religion in the political process would be good is obviously crazy...and flies in the face of historical evidence.

evolutionman1

February 04, 2012 5:41pm

Thank you for writing this. I get so tired of religious people constantly trying to inject their religion into other people's lives. Robert Jensen is just this sort of person. I may never understand why anyone would want to give religion yet another facelift. Of course it may well be easier to controle a population that is largely delusional. Someday christianity will take its rightful place among the other mythologies of the world--hopefully sooner rather than later.

anono

February 04, 2012 3:52pm

Hence why the religious despise the scientific.......scientific analysis points to God as being accountable for the ill fates we suffer.

evolutionman1

February 04, 2012 5:49pm

Actually scientific analysis points to God as being nonexistant. Or to put it another way, the existence of God is no more believable than the existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

dwdallam

February 04, 2012 3:32pm

A popular misconception about what religion is and can do is exemplified in your conclusion when you say, "We have the tools of modernity and science to help us understand what we can understand about the material world. We have faith traditions that remind us of the limits of our understanding."

This is patently false. Religion (theism) tells us knowing about the "limits of our understanding." Religion cannot even support its most fundamental belief: God is 'transcendent'.

The only way to test the limits of human knowledge is to subject them to rigorous vetting via logic and epistemology. Then after a tiring investigation, as Wittgenstein said, "Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent." And since the entire foundation of religion is based on a 'transcendent' entity, thereof religion must be silent. In other words, religion is not a testable and reproduceable system of knowledge and thus, ipso facto, cannot tell us anything bout the limits of knowledge.

What religion does do is allow people to have a false sense of control over their short and many times brutish lives. I get that. However, it tells us absolutely nothing of the logic or epistemology behind and necessary to human knowledge and limitations.

pitch1934

February 04, 2012 3:26pm

Practice your religion all that you want. Just do not try to cram your beliefs down my throat.

redslider's picture
redslider
N. California
February 04, 2012 2:25pm

I would agree, silly; and add, dangerous. Secular states (those that are truly secular) have no quarrel with enclaves of religious people and institutions as long as 1) The membership in those enclaves is entirely voluntary; 2) the edicts, canonical dogma; prophetic insistence and extra-human attributions are matters of concern only to those within a particular religious practice. When, by politics, law (i.e. involuntary compliance, violent imposition) or other compulsory means, those outside are forced to mimic or comply with religious visions, the matter becomes both dangerous and intolerable. As long as religions continue to attempt to make their personal beliefs compulsory on those outside their domain, they become a threat to all, including themselves.

Things like 'blasphemy' or religious loyalty have no meaning outside the group which defines them. Abortion is not a matter of "morality" until it is provoked by religious invasion of the body politic. No one in a secular world tells a religious person to have an abortion, let alone that they must have an abortion. Abortion, in fact, is a matter of jurisdiction, not of morality. The state as well as religion has no rational authority for telling people what they can or cannot do with the contents of their bodies; or for that matter, their sexual practices and preferences, or suicidal impulses or anything else pertaining to the individual or their voluntary association with others. That is entirely a matter for voluntary education and voluntary acceptance or refusal. It is only when a religious persuasion overreaches the specific domain of its own believers that bad things happen - and they always do.

They do with the state, too. But in that case, there is a theoretical basis for asserting that the state be accountable and answerable to the people (not always the case, but fundamental to the theory of governance). Religions, attributing their license to compel to some external, unimpeachable and unaccountable source are ever dangerous in their fundamental absolutism. The smaller the world gets, the more dangerous the prophetic vision becomes. Politics only permits religious compulsion by indirect assignment to some amorphous state that presumably worships as the believers do.

This is not about having "nice conversations" about the meaning of things, or exploring issues. You don't have to understand god(s) or have any of those nearby to do that. You simply have to refuse to pick up a gun, political or otherwise, to try to confirm your position by threat, or bludgeon others into compliance. That's simple, isn't it?

Seabury Lyon

February 04, 2012 1:29pm

I was surprised by Jensen's list of enlightening observations on what exists today as a powerfully divisive topic, and it couldn't have come at a better time, for political activists -and me personally. You can be sure I'll add Brueggemann’s book to my reading list.

Seabury Lyon

February 04, 2012 1:31pm

I was pleasantly surprised by Jensen's list of enlightening observations on what exists today as a powerfully divisive topic, and it couldn't have come at a better time, for political activists -or for me personally. You can be sure I'll add Brueggemann’s book to my reading list.

DC from NJ

February 04, 2012 1:27pm

This is a silly essay. There should be absolute separation of religion from government. The two have nothing to do with each other. Government doesn't need a "prophetic tradition" (if so, whose?) to function. And, in fact, many of the world's problems are caused or made worse by religious conflicts (Iraq, Palestinians vs. Israelis, 9/11, etc., etc.), not helped by religion.

Edkoslin

February 04, 2012 1:18pm

To move from either/or to both/and is a helpful Buddhist touch.

evolutionman1

February 04, 2012 5:56pm

The problem is I don't want to live under the opressive unnatural dogma of the christian religion.

Edkoslin

February 04, 2012 1:17pm

To move from either/or to both/and is a helpful Buddhist touch.